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Just a few weeks after a divisive presidential election, millions of Americans are preparing to sit down with their families for Thanksgiving. According to some experts, the keys to moving forward lie not in politics, but in psychology. Judy Woodruff discussed political identity with social psychologist Keith Payne as part of her ongoing series, America at a Crossroads.
Notice: Transcripts are machine and human generated and lightly edited for accuracy. They may contain errors.
William Brangham:
Just a few weeks after a divisive presidential election, millions of Americans are about to sit down with their families for Thanksgiving dinner.
For those of you concerned with potentially difficult, even clashing conversations across the table, Judy Woodruff talks with social psychologist Keith Payne about identity and communication.
It’s part of her ongoing series America at a Crossroads.
Judy Woodruff:
Keith Payne grew up in a small town in rural Kentucky with almost entirely white residents. His family wasn’t outwardly political, but they leaned conservative, like most of their neighbors. His own political beliefs began to shift when he went away to college, and that made his trips home all the more difficult.
Keith Payne, Author, “Good Reasonable People: The Psychology Behind America’s Dangerous Divide”: I couldn’t stop getting into political arguments with my family members. I come from a big family with a lot of diverse political views.
And, on the one hand, I found these conversations and arguments so infuriating, and, on the other hand, I knew that they were good, decent people who I loved who I was having these intense arguments with.
Judy Woodruff:
Payne is now a social psychologist at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. He’s the author of a new book, “Good Reasonable People: The Psychology Behind America’s Dangerous Divide,” which attempts to explain why Americans feel so split over politics and why that can feel so personal.
Keith Payne:
We get a lot of our self-esteem and self-worth from the groups that we belong to, whether it’s partisan groups like Democrats and Republicans, whether it’s racial and ethnic groups, whether it’s religious groups, community groups.
Belonging to those groups is really important to us. And so much of what we do in life is based on reassuring ourselves that we’re good and reasonable people, and the groups that we belong to are good and reasonable too.
Judy Woodruff:
So you’re saying that the psychological roots of this, the social identity roots of this are more important than political beliefs, issues, and the rest of it.
Keith Payne:
Most people are sort of all over the map when it comes to policies and issue beliefs. Social scientists over the last 40 or 50 years have come to realize that most people don’t have what we consider a political ideology.
What they have is these social identities, and that’s what people keep coming back to whenever they figure out which party is my party, which candidate is my candidate.
Jason Howard, Owner, The Cardinal Bar:
I mean, I grew up in rural North Carolina, conservative family, conservative views.
Judy Woodruff:
Jason Howard is an owner of The Cardinal Bar in Raleigh, North Carolina, a neighborhood establishment known for inventive hot dogs and tongue-in-cheek signage.
Though Howard is a registered independent, he’s also a supporter of President Trump. He says, growing up in small-town Pittsburgh North Carolina, everyone around him was conservative.
Did you think of yourself as conservative? How did you…
Jason Howard:
I didn’t think there was anything else. You kind of like — you just take on your surroundings. You know what I mean?
Jasmine Gailliard, College Student:
I always knew because my mom did work for Obama when I was younger, and I always kind of just knew who I identified with, which party was best.
Judy Woodruff:
Jasmine Gailliard is a senior public policy major at the University of North Carolina who volunteers at Habitat for Humanity on the weekend. Originally from Philadelphia, she too says she always knew which party she’d support.
Jasmine Gailliard:
I did a straight Democratic ticket. It was very easy. I honestly didn’t have much to think about.
Judy Woodruff:
Among the many social identities people carry, where they’re born, their education, their religion, Payne says that race is the most salient factor, which he says helps explain why, even in the most recent election, the overwhelming majority of Black Americans voted for Democrats, while the majority of white Americans voted for Donald Trump, a correlation which he says has deep roots in our country’s history of segregation and inequality.
Keith Payne:
If you were born in a place that had a lot of slavery in 1860 and you’re white, we can predict with high degree of accuracy that you’re likely to support Republicans.
Judy Woodruff:
Why is that person more likely today to be a Republican?
Keith Payne:
If you’re a white person living in a place with stark levels of racial inequality, you look around and try to explain what’s going on, what’s the most likely explanation? If you haven’t learned about all of the history and the systems and economic processes that have been in play for the last 200 years, you’re probably going to conclude that it has nothing to do with your group, your race, your history.
The easiest thing to conclude is that maybe Black people aren’t trying hard enough, maybe they aren’t working as hard as white people. And that belief is one of the very strongest predictors of voting for Donald Trump.
Jasmine Gailliard:
I think, like, her whole campaign, the Republicans kept talking about, oh, I didn’t even know she was Black, I didn’t even know she was Indian, or just blatant racist things. They’re eating the cats, they’re eating the dogs.
Judy Woodruff:
Jasmine Gailliard says she believes race played a major role on both sides in this election.
Jasmine Gailliard:
I think also, on the flip side, the Democrats, some of them said, I’m going to vote for her because she’s a Black woman. And I’m a Black woman, and that makes me feel good. And while that is completely valid, that should not be the only reason you’re going to vote for someone.
Jason Howard:
I’m not thinking of it as the white guy won, so I’m happy about the white guy winning.
Judy Woodruff:
Jason Howard says race was not a factor in his political decision-making.
Jason Howard:
I mean, race never — has never played into that ever.
Judy Woodruff:
What role do you think race played, if any, in the election?
Jason Howard:
I think it definitely played a role for some people. I think it played a role for the small-minded extremists on the left and the right. But for the average everyday American, I don’t — I think we’re over that time.
Judy Woodruff:
People who vote Republican, it seems to me their reaction is going to be, I’m not a racist. So where is this coming from?
Keith Payne:
The point is not to call people racist.
The point is to understand that whatever beliefs both sides sincerely hold, we all approach any new argument or any new piece of evidence from the point of what I call the psychological bottom line, which is that we all believe that I’m a good, reasonable person and the groups I belong to are good, reasonable people too. And I’m going to find some way to incorporate all this information, whether it takes mental gymnastics of this sort or that, in a way that adds up to preserve my belief that I’m a good person.
Judy Woodruff:
Approaching politics from that perspective leads Payne to think differently about how to discuss politics with friends and loved ones.
Keith Payne:
I’m not arguing that everybody has to set aside all their political differences. These are important differences that are worth fighting for.
But if you’re looking for a way to stay connected over the Thanksgiving dinner, what we need to do is ask questions about how the values and the emotions and the identities are working underneath. So why do you believe that’s important? Why is that a value you care about?
Now you’re talking to each other as people again.
Judy Woodruff:
Why does all this matter?
Keith Payne:
Well, it matters because both sides are really fighting for what we believe the country to be and what we want it to be, because it’s tearing us apart in so many ways.
And if there’s one refrain that I hear again and again in talking to people, over and above, sort of, that I can’t stand the other side, it’s that I’m so exhausted by this, and I wish I could just have a normal Thanksgiving dinner with my family for once.
And so I think there is — there’s a lot of desire in the country to get past this. We just haven’t figured out how to do it yet.
Judy Woodruff:
A Budweiser.
Jason Howard:
Budweiser. Would you like a glass?
Judy Woodruff:
Yes, I would. Thank you.
Jason Howard:
We have all different walks of life coming here. We just wanted to just have a community place where everybody could feel comfortable.
Judy Woodruff:
Jason Howard is still trying to find a way to talk to friends with different political views.
Jason Howard:
I have a diverse group of friends all across the spectrums. We don’t talk about it, you know? It’s kind of taboo. It’s almost like, I like this person too much to talk about politics. And that’s the state we’re in. And that’s very sad.
Judy Woodruff:
But Jasmine Gailliard isn’t sure she can keep speaking to the Trump supporters in her life.
Jasmine Gailliard:
I think it says a lot about how OK with people are with blatant sexism and homophobia and racism. And it’s showing that there’s a home. There’s a home for that in America. And, frankly, it’s, like, disgusting.
Judy Woodruff:
What is your thinking right now about people who voted for him?
Jasmine Gailliard:
Personally, I’m detaching myself from his supporters.
Judy Woodruff:
Does that mean cutting off friendships, relationships that you have had?
Jasmine Gailliard:
Yes.
Judy Woodruff:
So, in the wake of a bitterly fought presidential election, while some Americans try to set politics aside, others say political choices are fundamental to their definition of who can be a friend, very much a house divided as we head into the holiday season and beyond.
For the “PBS News Hour,” I’m Judy Woodruff in Chapel Hill and Raleigh, North Carolina.
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Judy Woodruff is a senior correspondent and the former anchor and managing editor of the PBS News Hour. She has covered politics and other news for five decades at NBC, CNN and PBS.
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