In the weeks since President Trump returned to the White House, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders has quickly become one of the most public critics of the new administration.
And the 83-year-old Democratic Socialist has taken that message on the road — holding rallies in purple states like Wisconsin, Michigan and Nevada.
Vermont Public’s senior political correspondent Bob Kinzel spoke with Sanders this week about the “Fighting Oligarchy” tour and what he hopes to accomplish. This interview was produced for the ear. We highly recommend listening to the audio. We’ve also provided a transcript, which has been edited for length and clarity.
Bob Kinzel: Last week, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer supported the House Republican budget plan, saying it was the lesser of two evils. He argued that a government shutdown would give President Trump and his advisor, Elon Musk, even more authority to slash federal programs. Now, you strongly disagreed with his position, and you voted for a government shutdown. What about his concerns? Was it wrong?
Bernie Sanders: I didn’t vote for a government shutdown. What I voted for and wanted was the Republicans to come to the table. This is the very first time that anybody can remember where you had one party — in this case, a handful of right wing Republican extremists in the House — writing the entire bill, always, because they need 60 votes in the Senate, it is a bipartisan effort. What I wanted was the Republicans to sit down and negotiate, rather than just shove a unilateral and terrible bill down our throats.
This was a very bad piece of legislation, what it did is move us continually, continuously along the line of authoritarianism in giving Trump and Musk a blank check to do what they want with federal funds, rather than has been the case in the past, where Congress has input, saying, “Alright. This is where money in education is going. This is where money in veterans programs are going. This is what we do with social security.” This one was more or less a blank check, “Hey, Trump, you do what you want with it.” Very bad idea. Unprecedented, unprecedented, and part of that movement toward authoritarianism, which we must fight.
Bob Kinzel: Bernie, I had one other question about Sen. Schumer: Do you think he should step down as minority leader?
Bernie Sanders: It’s more than Schumer. If you’re looking at just Schumer, the question is, “OK, who replaces him in the Senate? What is the agenda?” And more importantly, do we need fundamental reform of the Democratic Party? Do we need— instead of right now, in my view, what the Democratic Party is, is essentially a party funded by very wealthy people, a party run by consultants, often people very much out-of-touch with the working class of this country.
So what I am trying to do, along with some others, including Alexandria [Ocasio-Cortez], is the force open the Democratic Party, to bring in working class people, bring in young people, bring in people of color.
So what I think we need is a political revolution. You open the doors and you demand that Congress starts taking on the oligarchy and the special interests, and fights from the needs of working class people. Look, we have more wealth and income inequality today than we’ve ever had in America. You hear anybody talking about that?
So you got a corrupt campaign finance system hitting both political parties. And anybody who’s serious about the situation in America has got to recognize that and address it.
Bob Kinzel: Bernie, a number of federal judges have blocked actions taken by the Trump administration. More lawsuits are in the pipeline. It’s likely that most of these cases will be decided by the U.S. Supreme Court. Do you have confidence that the court will find that the administration has acted illegally in many of these situations?
Bernie Sanders: Well, the administration has acted illegally, and many of the lower courts have found that, and I appreciate that. I have no idea what the Supreme Court will do. It is a conservative court, many Trump appointees on it, but I’ll tell you what does concern me, and I hope that it concerns every Vermonter and every American, and that is when I talk about moving toward authoritarianism, it’s not just that Trump is trying to usurp the powers of Congress, which was what he has been doing for the last month — both in cutting funding that Congress had appropriated and in this particular piece of legislation that we discussed — it’s his attacks on media.
The other day, I think he was saying that CNN and MSNBC are quote, unquote, illegal, should be investigated — and they’re going to go after, by the way, NPR, PBS — because these outlets are sometimes critical of the president. So can you imagine— and he has sued the Des Moines Register for a poll that he didn’t like. He has sued ABC, suing Meta. So you have a president who thinks that the function of the media is simply to glorify him, not to tell the American people what they think is really going on.
And then in terms of the courts, you asked me about the Supreme Court, Musk is talking about, I think Trump now as well, “Well, if there’s a judge who rules against me, we got to impeach that judge, because the only judges we like are people who think that the executive branch has unlimited power.” Add all that stuff up — the attacks against the courts, the attacks against Congress, the attacks against the media — that is, Bob, what authoritarianism is. And I don’t care whether you’re a conservative, Republican or Progressive.
The Founding Fathers, I have to say, you know, the more I look back on it, these guys were pretty smart in the 1790s or whatever when they understood that we had to have a separation of powers: give the executive power, give Congress power, give the judiciary power, let them check each other. And what Trump is trying to do, in a very forceful way, is undo what our Constitution ordained. And that is a very dangerous situation.
Bob Kinzel: Finally, Bernie, as you look at some of the huge challenges facing the country, many of which you’ve talked about today, are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future of Democracy?
Bernie Sanders: Well, Bob, when I go out and I talk to people, you know, and I, you know, I think in the rallies that Alexandria and I will be holding in a few days, I think you’re going to see tens of thousands of people coming up. And I look out in the faces, and I see, you know, Blacks and whites and Latinos and young people and old people and gay people and straight people who really understand that we can move this country in a very different direction.
We have the wealthiest country in the history of the world. You should not have massive poverty among the elderly and the children. You should not have 800,000 people who are homeless. We should not have more income and wealth inequality than we’ve ever had. People understand that we have the potential to create a very different country where all of our people have a decent standard of living, that health care is a human right, that we address the planetary crisis of climate change, etc. So in that sense, I am optimistic.
Can we galvanize people fast enough to get involved in the political process, to take on the Democratic Party, to take on the Republican Party? That remains to be seen, but that is what I’m trying to do.
Enter your email to sign up for The Frequency
Vermont Public’s daily news update, sent weekday mornings.
See more newsletters
Have questions, comments or tips? Send us a message.
Loading…
